The Ides of March
written by R.J. Stewart - Executive Producer
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 10
SD: The moment when the chakram struck Xena in the back and then fell to the ground broken in two was so unexpected. I was stunned. In part that Xena could be brought down by her own weapon and then, that it could be broken. It always seemed so indestructible - as did Xena. Was it always planned that it would be a different looking chakram when it was fixed?
RJ: Yes.
SD: That's a big move, changing Xena's chakram.
RJ: When we got to the new season and began to discuss how to put the chakram back together, we took advantage of the opportunity to give her a new weapon. We also explored giving her an entirely different weapon. But it was decided to design a new and improved chakram instead.
SD: And the yin/yang theme had been prevalent throughout the end of last season. There was a symmetry to having the chakram be a symbol of what they had been going through and what they were learning about themselves.
RJ: Right.
SD: The theme of the crucifixion had been building all season. That image played a part in many episodes. How far back was the idea of having Xena and Gabrielle be crucified developed?
RJ: When Lucy was doing "Grease" on Broadway, Rob and I were sitting in a bar and he pitched that idea to me. He said at the end of the fourth season, he’d like to see Xena and Gabrielle crucified. We had a long way to go to get to that end, but I thought it was certainly different and we went for it.
But I was bothered with the idea of leaving the series with such a dark note for children — that their heroes had been killed. That’s why their spirits came out at the end.. I felt pretty strongly about that. The debate sometimes is whether our show is suitable for kids or not. But we know enough kids watch it that I didn’t want them to spend the summer worried about Xena and Gabrielle dying there on the cross.
SD: Even with their spirits being released, there were a lot of people who thought the series was over. I spent the summer responding to emails from viewers expressing their dismay that the series had ended. I’m still getting letters like that. Why a crucifixion?
RJ: We wanted to explore Heaven and Hell. And it’s an intriguing storyline to kill off your two lead characters.
Writing that script was very stimulating because I didn’t have the slightest idea what I was going to do. I knew they were going to be crucified at the end, but I didn't know how we were going to get there. There was a question about whether we could get Hudson and I refused to start the script or even the beat sheet until I knew we had her.
SD: And if she hadn’t been able to do the show?
RJ: I would have done an entirely different story.
SD: Callisto brought a very strong emotional impact to the story because of her history with Xena and Gabrielle.
RJ: Right.
SD: You actually scripted that bit with Callisto standing in the falling snow and catching the snowflake on her tongue. You saw that in your mind when you were writing that scene?
RJ (laughing): Yeah.
SD (laughing): Delicious moment!
RJ: (chuckling gleefully)
SD: What is the difference for you between the Way of Friendship and the Way of Love?
RJ: Eli’s concept of the Way of Love is that you love everything. It’s a love of every living thing. It’s compassion, loving kindness. The Way of Friendship is a specific loyalty to a specific person.
SD: Gabrielle killed to save Xena. Would she kill if Amarice were in danger?
RJ: She would now.
SD: For the greater good?
RJ: For the greater good. She’s much less likely to kill than Xena. It’s something she still finds repellant. She certainly would kill to protect Xena’s baby. And she would kill to protect Eli. She now realizes there are people she would kill to protect.
SD: The moment when Gabrielle sees Xena lying on the ground, unable to defend herself, with the Roman soldier charging at Xena with his sword raised and Gabrielle starts killing the soldiers around her - I was curious how you pictured that moment in your mind when you were writing it.
RJ: We decided we wanted to crucify Xena and Gabrielle, but we weren’t sure how to get to that point. We began by talking about having them go on a spiritual quest. That became one of the themes in the fourth season. But the crucifixion and the quest didn’t start out in our minds as dovetailing. However, it soon became clear to us that one could lead to the other. The more Gabrielle tried to follow Eli’s path and philosophy of love, I remember thinking that, ultimately, when she turns, when she explodes, it would be such a dramatic moment. That was the one part of “Ideas” I knew I was going to do.
SD: Does Gabrielle have a dark side?
RJ: Not really.
SD: Renee said the same thing when I asked her that question.
RJ: Everyone has some darkness in them to a degree, but I wouldn’t use that phrase to describe Gabrielle.
SD: The moment when Xena is struck by the chakram - Lucy played that magnificently. The look on her face, the buckling of her knees.
RJ: She was wonderful. It was stunning.
SD: There is a scene in “Callisto” of Xena and Gabrielle talking by a campfire and Gabrielle tells Xena, “There’s only one way to end this cycle of hatred and it’s through love and forgiveness.” That’s been a part of Gabrielle throughout the series. How does that relate to Gabrielle as she is now?
RJ: Gabrielle is certainly more of a warrior, but I don’t believe a warrior has to hate. Certainly has betrayed a lot of what she has stood for in that scene in “Ides” when she went wild, but we know it was following the path of friendship and came from her love of Xena.