The Debt I, II
story by Robert Tapert and R.J. Stewart
teleplay by R.J. Stewart
Interview with R.J. Stewart (Executive Producer)
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 02
Our first major introduction to “The Destroyer of Nations.”
Rob and I wanted to do “Xena goes to China” from day one. I think a key point for me was when we came up with the idea of Lao Ma being the author of the Tae Te Ching.
Writing it was really one of the best writing experiences I ever had. I don’t mean fun. It was tough balancing the flashbacks with the present story, but very satisfying. I really understood what I was saying philosophically. However, I want to make clear the philosophy is not totally Tao Te Ching. There’s a little Hinduism and Buddhism and Schopenhauer. But a lot of the quotes were from the Tao Te Ching modified slightly. The Blind Will stuff is more Schopenhauer. I think it works as a whole and I’m very proud of how it turned out.
I also want to add that I took all these various philosophies and then filtered them through my own peculiar world view. I want to avoid people writing in saying, “That’s technically not the Tao Te Ching.” I modified it a lot. I had to make it good drama.
“To conquer others is to have power, to conquer yourself is to know the way.” Is that in the Tao Te Ching?
I think it is. I have 24 translations. Or I made it up because it fits the philosophy.
“The entire world is driven by a will - blind and ruthless. In order to transcend the limitations of that world, you need to stop willing, stop desiring, stop hating.”
The force behind the material world is a Blind Will and you have to deny that Will in order to get at the truth behind the material world. Now you’re getting into idealism which is Hinduism, Buddhism, Plato, Schopenhauer, Kant. It’s different than Taoism. That’s why I say no one should use what I put into Lao Ma’s voice as a gloss on the Tao Te Ching. I really played fast and easy with it.
Most people would not quantify the Tao Te Ching as an idealistic philosophy. And “idealistic” is not the common everyday use of the word. The key word is “idea.” Everything we experience comes through our senses. We really only experience our idea of what’s out there. In order to know what’s truly out there, we need something like religion, some connection with the absolute; God, if you will. It’s contrasted with realism. Taoism would probably be classified a more realistic thing. So mixing idealism with realism is me channeling this through my own “ism.” It was a lot of fun to do cuz obviously you can see I’m obsessed with this stuff. It is rewarding to get strings of a philosophy out there that have been so rewarding to me and I think would be helpful to others.
There was such a contrast between the feralness of Xena and the charisma of Lao Ma.
One of our great coups was to get Jacqueline Kim. We were told she doesn’t do television. We we said let’s send the script anyway and see what happens. She called me here and said, “I love this part.” She was wonderful. She really created the character.
Any chance of her coming back?
It’s not impossible.
What was the justification for Gabrielle slapping Xena?
We’re dealing with a lot of complicated issues here. Gabrielle’s going through a lot of conflict. She loves Xena. Xena is the most important thing in her life and Xena is rejecting her in a sense.
“You owe someone so much so much that you would just throw away these last few years?” (Gabrielle to Xena)
So there are a lot of complicated emotions both in the betrayal and the slap working in Gabrielle. And that’s all I’m gonna say. The rest of it is open to speculation.
Fans say that Gabrielle just wouldn’t do that.
Gabrielle and Xena are real people for me. Almost to the point where I’m probably certifiable. When I’m sitting at the computer working, they’re in the room with me. I’m talking to them. I’m watching them. I know real people can be very irrational. We all know that the human existence is full of odd, eccentric behavior. That doesn’t mean the writer doesn’t have an obligation to have some kind of rationale behind everything the characters do. Of course they do. But it doesn’t have to be immediately accessible to the audience. It can be mysterious.
If people think television characters should remain consistent, if that’s the highest value they want, then I would say you don’t want Xena to be a television series. When Xena was introduced, she was an evil villain. She’s gone through a radical conversion. Our whole series is based on the idea that people change and evolve.
Gabrielle is a teenager when she meets Xena and kids that age don’t have the slightest idea who they are. Haven’t we all had the 16-year-old cousin that we haven’t seen in ten years and then we meet them and they’re a genius, they’re a slob. There are all these shocking things you learn about them. Who knows that Gabrielle may not stay the sweet person she is. Now really, I’m just speculating on this. We’re exploring as we go along. That doesn’t mean we’re not deserving of some criticism for trying different things. I’m not saying everything we do can be justified. But certainly I would never put anything in the script that I haven’t thought out in the sense of this is recognizable human behavior for this human being I feel I know very well.
As far as a consistent character on a television series, I’m not interested in doing that. I’m interested in exploring these human beings. These characters are not gonna be the same as in the first season. I’m telling you, these characters are gonna change. Hold on, hold on for the ride - they’re gonna change!
There is a chakram around the doorway in Lao Ma’s house - did you notice that?
I didn’t put that in there. Rob Gillies (production designer) is a genius!
People think it was put in there to tell us that Xena got the chakram from Lao Ma. But if Rob did it, then it’s not part of the story.
But that means Rob is contributing to the mythology of the show. Then I can be sitting home watching it and think, “Wow, Xena got the chakram from…” If Rob Gillies did that or if Rob Tapert was there and said to do it or Olay Sassone (director) or Eric Gruendemann (producer), then it becomes part of the myth. To say the writers didn’t intend it so therefore it isn’t real - that’s not the case. It’s a collaborative thing.
Did Lao Ma send the hair pin to Xena to tell her to kill Ming T’ien?
I’m of two heads on this in the writing. And when I watch it, I’m still of two heads. One of the things I was facing was trying to make the whole flashback have some continuity with the present. Coming up with the crow’s head hair pin was a matter of trying to have something for Lao Ma that would appear at the end to tie it together.
Let me just answer the question, because I don’t want to give away too many writers’ secrets. The answer to the question is simple. No, Lao Ma did not want her to kill. That’s my take on it. The reason Xena lost the power is because she killed. She was just supposed to make him small.
There is also the debate about whether or not Ming T’ien is really dead.
He’s dead. I don’t mind answering that one - he’s dead! Xena killed him. That’s the lie. Boy, did Lucy play that - when she says, “Love you too, Gabrielle.” When I wrote that line, I had all kinds of things I was thinking why she would say that, but boy, did Lucy find a great read on that. That was just wonderful. That’s why we’re so lucky to have these wonderful actresses.
I love the feral, obsessed, crippled Xena. Was Lucy’s depiction of that the way you saw it in your head - that animal cunning?
Those were perfect choices she made. This picked up from the end of “Destiny” with Xena saying, “A new Xena is born tonight with a new purpose in life - death!” Keep in mind that the very initial ideas about the stories were Rob’s and I’m certain he felt that’s where we’re picking her up from.
And as we’re saying this, I’m picturing the Xena who was standing on the pile of loot from that ravaged village - that was not the Xena in “The Debt.” Something had changed her from a confident, powerful leader.
I can remember that conversation. Rob and I were talking about Xena after Caesar and we both fell in love with the idea of her going to Mongolia and I mentioned, “I see skins. She’s becoming like an animal.” Caesar has broken her ethical spirit so now she’s really just living on her animal side. She is the Blind Will. She’s not denying anything. She’s nothing but Will.
She became pure obsession, cunning.
The idea is that if you don’t deny those things, that’s what you become. If you just give in to every appetite, desire…