Livia
written by Chris Manheim
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 14
SD: Livia was a real person. Was it meant to be a reference to the real Livia of Rome? And we should let anyone know who’s reading this article and hasn't seen the episode that Xena named her daughter Eve and Augustus renamed her Livia to keep the gods from finding out she was still alive. You can keep track of it by thinking when she’s bad, she’s Livia. When she becomes good, she's Eve.
Chris: No, I picked the name for personal reasons. Because of the TV miniseries I, Claudius. The woman who lasted through the entire series pulling everyone's strings was Livia. In The Sopranos, the woman behind the scenes, Tony's mother, is also named Livia. It seems to be a popular choice for strong-willed women.
SD: Livia made for an interesting villain in that she was Xena’s daughter. In the discussions you were part of, was there any talk of her staying evil?
Chris: There may have been earlier, but from the beginning of the discussions I was involved in, the plan was that the end of the fifth season would be three against the gods - Xena, Gabrielle and Eve. However, the storyline changed when it was decided Gabrielle and Eve would be injured during the showdown. There wasn't going to be any cliffhanger about whether Xena could turn her evil daughter to good. You would know by the end of the season that Livia had come to reconcile herself as Eve. And that she would be fighting with Xena and Gabrielle.
SD: I’ve heard fight scenes are expensive. Is that what caused the change from three against the gods to just Xena?
Chris: Yes. We couldn't have a big blowout in some canyon. It had to be an interior fight.
SD: Did you do any reading about the real Augustus?
Chris: It didn't really play a part in this story which was focused on Xena and Eve. I do know he was a fairly judicious emperor and that worked in with the story we were telling.
SD: I noticed a scene in the shooting draft of the script that had Augustus trying to stop Livia from slaughtering Eli's followers.
Chris: It was cut for time. The director's cut came in 16 minutes over. There was a lot they needed to take out from the last two acts. We had to give up a bridging scene from the party where Xena got rid of Ares and went looking for Livia. I believe some Gabrielle/Jeric scenes were cut too.
SD: Who’s Jeric?
Chris: That was my original name for Virgil. When I started thinking of the character of Joxer’s son, I called him Jeric because Joxer's brothers were named Jace and Jet. I figured there was this “J” thing happening in Joxer's family. (laughs) So when Joxer had his first son, he had to honor the tradition and have his name begin with a “J.” I also made him a long-form poet. Then someone in one of the story meetings said, “Wouldn’t it be cool if he was Virgil?” It didn't matter to me if we changed the name and I don't know if I ever explained to anyone why I named him Jeric to begin with.
SD: William Gregory (Greg) Lee did a terrific job with Virgil. He had such a sweetness about him and that was something I always felt with Joxer. I loved the scene in “Motherhood” where Xena, Gabrielle and Eve ride to Joxer's home after Livia has killed Joxer. He did a fantastic job portraying Virgil's heartbreak over the death of his father.
Chris: I really wanted Greg for the part. I kept saying, “This is the guy!”
SD: Was there anyone else in the running?
Chris: When I started to write the script, I kept begging the casting people to just show me some faces. I needed a face to put with the character. They showed me a photo of another actor and I began to see Virgil in my mind. I would have been happy with that actor, but then I saw Greg and he was perfect. The other guy would have taken the character in a different direction.
SD: What would have been different about him?
Chris: He would have had the sweet dumbness of Joxer. Greg is sharper. And, because Virgil is also Meg's son, I wanted him to be a bit more like Lucy.
SD: By the way, did Rome have female leaders like Livia in charge of their armies back then?
Chris: To the best of my knowledge, no, they didn't. I do have a book about the position of women in Roman society and I don't think any of them fought. There were some who wielded political power behind the scenes.
SD: Xena doesn’t seem to have much luck with her children. She and Gabrielle wind up losing 25 years out of their lives to save Xena's daughter and Eve ends up becoming the scourge of Rome.
Chris: Yeah, she turns out to be Xena. To me, that is so cool because it's history repeating itself. As hard as you try, if it's gonna repeat, it just does. You do what you can to change things and it still happens.
SD: And who just happened to be looking around for a replacement for Xena in his life - Ares!
Chris (laughs): Yeah! Although, in his heart, he could never replace Xena. That speech he gives to Xena at the party is true. He mourned her for years and still harbors hopes they could be together. That's the real Ares. He’s not kidding around and we come to see that when he gives up his immortality in “Motherhood” to save Eve and Gabrielle.
SD: How did everyone wind up in Italy? Ares buried Xena and Gabrielle near Mt. Etna and Joxer and Meg live within a day’s travel of Rome.
Chris: Ares could spirit them away to anyplace he wanted. So it was easy for him to transport Xena and Gabrielle's bodies to Mt Etna. And that place was special to him for some reason we're not privy to. It was where he could seal them away and for us, freezing them would preserve their bodies. Now, why was Joxer there? Beats me. (laughs) I don't know why he and Meg didn't settle in Greece. You could say that when Octavius/Augustus took baby Eve with him to Rome for safekeeping, Joxer might have wanted to stay close to her. To keep an eye on her for Xena. But, then again, he didn’t live in Rome, but nearby. Virgil did live there, however.
SD: Someone brought up the idea that Ares might have thought of hiding Xena and Gabrielle’s bodies in Italy to keep the Greek gods from discovering them.
Chris: That's a good idea. But Ares really did believe they were dead so the Greek gods wouldn't have any interest in their remains. All they wanted was for Eve to be dead. We did decide not to deal with the fact that the Romans would have had different names for the gods. Ares would have been called Mars. We decided that would just be too confusing.
SD: Part of the mythology of this series is the Fates and the threads of life they seem to be in charge of. When you die, your thread is cut. Why didn't the Greek gods check this out to find out if Xena, Gabrielle and Eve were really dead?
Chris: Everyone believed what their eyes told them.
SD: The gods are not infallible?
Chris: Oh gosh no! I think we've seen that. They’re arrogant. You'd think with Xena they'd double and triple check their facts, but they didn’t. I'm guessing they believed if Ares went to the trouble of taking the bodies away and entombing them that there was no doubt they were dead.
SD: And Ares was holding their dead bodies. Why would he check with the fates.
Chris: Yeah. He kissed Xena goodbye. The gods saw Ares’ distress. When he tells Xena, “I mourned for you, I mourned for 25 years,” the gods would have to believe that wasn't an act. And 25 years passed with no sign of Xena. The gods had to figure they were free and clear.
SD: Was it ever discussed that Hudson Leick, Callisto, might play Eve?
Chris: I believe it did come up, but I think everyone thought there was too much baggage with the Callisto character. No one could look at her and forget she was Callisto. It would be too much to ask of the casual viewer to say, “Oh, yeah, this person who looks exactly like Callisto is now Eve.” I know it was mentioned because for a nanosecond people thought that would be cool. But immediately we decided it wouldn't work.
SD: Having written for the Xena character for five years, do you think she could have killed Eve if she couldn't change her?
Chris: No, I don’t think she could do that. And I think you learn that in “Eve” at the end of the fight between them when Xena has her chakram raised to deliver the final blow and realizes she can't.
SD: And yet Gabrielle killed Hope, her daughter by Dahak, the Evil One.
Chris: You have to understand that Gabrielle came to believe her daughter was pure evil. She knew her father was Dahak/Satan. Xena and Gabrielle knew Eve was not from a Dahak type of god even though she is a godly child. I believe Xena never gave up on Eve and, at the end, she turned her daughter's fate over to the Archangel Michael. I believe Gabrielle had to give up thinking that her daughter could be changed.
SD: I saw Hope as purely demon spawn with nothing human in her at all.
Chris: Even though Gabrielle gave birth to her?
SD: Yeah.
Chris: You might have a case believing that of Hope because she became full grown in a matter of days. All she was was a vessel for Dahak to come into the world. Livia grew as a normal human baby and child. I think you have to say there was more humanity in Livia than in Hope if there was any at all in Hope.
SD: I remember R.J. Stewart saying the idea for the episode where Hope was born, “Gabrielle's Hope,” was to do their version of Rosemary's Baby. It was never meant to be Gabrielle’s child. And I think it was a surprise that some fans looked upon this child as really being Gabrielle's daughter.
Chris: They took Hope to heart.
SD: Right. And Renee played the scene where she poisoned Hope as if this was her real child.
Chris: She did.
SD: That's why some people find it so frustrating that, for them, the show never dealt with the fact that Gabrielle had to kill her own child. Others took Xena’s song, “Forgive Me,” in “The Bitter Suite,” as the resolution between Xena and Gabrielle over the deaths of both their children.
(NOTE: This interview was conducted before the airing of “The Abyss” during which there was a scene in which a delirious Gabrielle talks to Xena as if she was talking to Hope. I'll cover this in a future interview.)
Chris: They never forgave the show for having Gabrielle kill her daughter?
SD: Right. Others just accepted the fact that Hope as a demon child.
Chris: Interesting. Hope would always be her father’s daughter. She was amoral and couldn’t be redeemed. Because of the way Xena got pregnant with her child, she knows it comes from a more positive power than Dahak was. Why would all this have been visited upon her by a force for good if there wasn't good to be had out of Eve. And you just couldn’t say that about Dahak.
SD: As for Hope and Gabrielle, why would such a bad thing happen to such a good person?
Chris: That's what he needed to get into the world - the purest vessel possible. And that is Gabrielle. It also gave Renee some great moments in “Maternal Instincts.” When she realized Hope had lied to her and when she knew she would have to kill her daughter, Renee was wonderful. Such powerful emotions played across her face.
(NOTE: The Archangel Michael’s goodness is seemingly in doubt in future episodes. We'll have to wait and see how this turns out.)
SD: So Joxer married Meg. How did you decide what their relationship would be?
Chris: I have to tell you, she’s a little bitchy. (laughs) I thought their marriage would be a little happier, goofier. But I think Ted and Lucy had a lot of fun playing them that way. A change of pace. Let me tell you about a scene I wrote that was deleted after the first draft. Once Meg realizes this is the real Xena and Gabrielle who have showed up on their tavern doorstep, she is concerned that maybe Joxer will leave her now that his first love, Gabrielle, is back. But she lets it go and puts her trust in the fact that Joxer loves her.
SD: A logical fear. I would have liked to see that. I always had a soft spot for Meg.
Chris: His first love who hasn't changed a bit and here’s Meg, older, heavier.
SD: Speaking of older - no one said a word about the fact that these two women obviously hadn’t aged a day.
Chris: I think we saw Joxer was shocked and then we cut to a scene of the three of them at a table talking which would be where they told him the story of what had happened to them. Virgil absolutely didn't bat an eye! (laughs)
SD: I guess this is something you just couldn't take the time to show.
Chris: And you’d have to explain it every time they ran into someone from their past. Xena’s first meeting with Augustus might have been the perfect time to do it. He would have been astounded. Here he was so old and they were still so young.
SD: Joxer made an interesting shrine to Xena and Gabrielle out of his tavern. (laughs)
Chris (laughs): Planet Xena - it was meant to be a cross between a theme restaurant and a shrine. I thought it was fun.
SD (laughs): I could have given them the names of about 12,000 Xena fans who would have offered to decorate it for free.