Four men and a pregnant lady or how I learned to love horses
by Sharon Delaney
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 17
(This interview was conducted on September 14, 2001. One week and one day later, Renee gave birth to her son, Miles William Muir on September 22. But during this interview, he was still just a twinkle in his mother’s eye.)
I gotta know, I gotta know!
“Hey, Renee, can you still see your toes?” I asked teasingly.
Renee laughed good-naturedly. “I haven’t seen my toes in months.”
Those magnificent abs finally gave up the ghost and gave the baby some room to play in.
“There’s a great shot from the convention,” I started to tell Renee, “of Lucy pointing to your tummy saying, ‘There’s nothing there!’”
“It cracks me up,” Renee said in amazement. “I’ll look at a photo like that and think how large my stomach seemed to me at the time because my composition had changed so much. But it’s really different now. Definitely pregnant.” She was filled with a first-time mother's pride and astonishment.
“Do you put coffee cups on your stomach like Lucy said she did?” I queried.
“No, I haven’t done that yet,” Renee laughed. “I use it as an armrest sometimes, but I get kicked off by the baby.”
“I’ll keep an eye on the time,” I told Renee.
“We'll be fine unless I go into labor,” she chuckled.
My eyebrows shot up at that possible ending to our interview and I dived into asking about “Friend In Need.”
“When did you know the series was actually ending and you would have to film a finale?” I asked.
Renee thought for a moment and then realized there wasn't an actual moment. “Most everyone believed season six was going to be the last year. There were several different situations where we weren’t sure what was going on for a long time. I know the crew was waiting with bated breath to hear what was going to happen to their jobs. It took a while for it to be announced.”
“Some people wondered if the writers had had all of the sixth season to prepare for the finale,” I told her.
“It wasn’t that way,” Renee explained. “No one really knew for the longest time.”
“Over the past six years,” I began, “did you ever ruminate on how the series might end?”
“Not really,” Renee admitted. “Because you live in the moment of each episode, there's no time to think about the future. And the characters were always changing and evolving.”
“In Hollywood, you can get a renewal notice at the end of March and find out when you come back to film in April that the show is over!” I said.
“Yeah,” Renee agreed. “I think we’ve always been quite lucky the show has been successful enough to keep us alive. We were so fortunate.”
“When did you learn Xena was going to die?” I asked.
“I think Rob told me before I read it in the script,” Renee thought out loud, “but he still wasn’t sure what was going to happen to Gabrielle.”
“Were you shocked?”
“Not really,” Renee answered. “I thought it was a bold choice and the most obvious resolution to Xena seeking redemption. To me, it made sense. I thought it was beautifully done. To see Xena finally come to peace with herself which is what she’s been searching for all these years.”
“One of the discussions surrounding Xena’s death,” I began, “concerned the fact that some people believed this was the resolution to Xena’s journey and she died for a noble reason. Others felt it was saying no matter how much good you do in your life, the only way to pay for your sins is to die.”
“But I think this one situation was quite distinct, wasn’t it?” she responded. “It was a specific situation where Xena was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people and the only way they could be at peace is for her to stay dead. It wasn’t meant to be a global rule.”
“I mentioned to someone that almost all of Xena's history was represented in these two episodes,” I told her, “and you could have watched them without having seen a single show in the series and gotten most of what the story and relationships were.”
Renee murmured her agreement and then said, “I did appreciate the fact that the two episodes did stand alone. That you could begin to watch the show from the first episode of 'Friend In Need’ and have an idea of the history between the characters and Xena’s dark past. And then find her come full circle to her redemption. I have heard some people say they wished some of the characters they had gotten to know over the last six years had been involved in some way.”
“This was Rob’s chance to tell the Xena story in a mini-movie,” I noted.
“You have to make choices. I think this was a bold one. We haven’t tried to break all the rules, but we seem to have done a pretty good job of doing that over the years,” she laughed. “It was a great way to go out.”
“If you had thought it was wrong to kill Xena, do you think you would have been able to have any input?” I wondered.
“I don’t know if it would have changed Rob’s mind,” Renee chuckled. “I personally think the finale was Rob’s and R.J.’s conception and their final devotion to six years of working on Xena.”
“So Rob didn’t call you up and say, ‘We’re going to kill Xena. What do you think?’” I joked.
“No, no,” Renee said. She explained further. “Rob is such a collaborative, creative person, he always looks at what other people are thinking of his decisions and takes that into consideration. But I think once he made a decision about what he wanted to do, it was pretty well set in stone. I think maybe Lucy might say he went back and forth. But, from my point of view, he seemed to be pretty positive.”
Akemi’s character was deliberately given lines of dialogue that harkened back to things Gabrielle had said early in the series. One of the most prominent was when Akemi said to Xena, “I want you to teach me everything you know.” I was curious to hear Renee’s opinion about Gabrielle’s feelings toward Akemi.
“Was Gabrielle jealous of Akemi?” I asked. “After all, Xena taught her the pinch.”
Renee laughed. “I don’t think it was jealousy. It was more that the pinch was a huge symbolic part of Xena. And for her to have shared it with someone - and not Gabrielle - was quite shocking. I don’t think Gabrielle was ever jealous of Akemi. Obviously Xena loved her and Gabrielle could appreciate that. The journey into Xena’s past was so emotional, there was no room for Gabrielle to be jealous, just supportive of her partner.”
“Gabrielle had until the second sunset to get Xena's ashes to the Fountain of Strength. But she stopped to get a tattoo!” I tried not to sound too incredulous. Although I have to admit, I thought the tattoo was glorious and I didn’t really care how long it took to get it.
“I know. Beauty first,” Renee laughed. “It was supposed to protect Gabrielle. I guess you could say Akemi knew what Gabrielle would be up against and that’s why she gave her the tattoo.”
“How long did it take to put it on?” .
“About an hour,” she explained. “They tried to work it in during the day if they could, but sometimes I just had to come in early. They were sweet too. They tried to cushion my belly so I didn’t have to lean into it for too long. Jane (O’Kane - makeup supervisor) and Barbie (Renee's makeup person) put on a transfer and then handpainted all the scales. It was incredible. They’re both artists and painstakingly made each color match the day before. They take great pride in their work and it shows.
“And I had a fish on my leg. Did you see the fish?” Renee said excitedly. “I’m sure it represented something, but I thought it was quite funny that Rob - the deep-sea fisherman - gave me a fish tattoo on my leg.”
“I suppose he thought Yodoshi might throw a fireball at your calf,” I teased.
For one silly moment, we both contemplated that idea. Nah, we agreed, not even in Hollywood would the bad guy try to take out your calf.
“Another episode with rain,” I commented, knowing how much Lucy and Renee love to be in artificial rain.
“Now I can say it wasn’t as cold as it has been in the past. Everything's relative to ‘The Abyss,’ for me,” Renee laughed. “It was only during the reshoot of that scene that it seemed unbearably cold.”
“Why did they do that and when?” I asked.
“It was my very last scene on Xena,” Renee reminisced. “They needed to pick up some closeups to tie in the sequence. We didn't have enough time the night we originally shot it. I remember it was much colder the second time. Rob was taping the filming and when they put the fire hose on top of the camera and aimed it at my head, it was all I could do not to cuss.” Renee laughed heartily. “Water seems a whole lot warmer coming down from a rain machine way above you.”
“I just loved that fight scene,” I told Renee. “The closeups, the sounds of the rain and the footfalls in the mud. It was awesome!” I said enthusiastically.
“Rob was very specific about what he wanted in that scene,” Renee explained. “The other actor and I had to train with stunt people for a few days to make sure we had the right sliding of the feet. And that each position was done correctly.”
“What were you looking at when you discovered Xena’s body,” I queried.
“Did you ever meet Polly, Lucy’s original body double for the first few years?” she asked me.
“She left to do other things and they brought her back to hang from a tree in a harness almost naked. I felt for her. She was very cold and very patient.”
“Why didn’t they use Cindy, Lucy’s regular body double?” I asked.
“We had three units going at once and she was busy somewhere else,” Renee explained.
And then there was the moment Gabrielle discovers Xena’s body. Renee’s work in that scene was devastating.
“What can I say,” she laughed. “How many times do you expect to do a scene like that?”
“What struck me was the strength of the emotion and yet you were pulling back at the same time,” I tried to explain the effect that scene had had on me. “You were retching, but you didn't throw up.”
“Rob actually filmed that later on. He felt he needed another reaction from Gabrielle,” Renee said, remembering. “I think I brought up the idea of a dry heave to Rob because to me it was Gabrielle wanting to absolutely refuse the whole thing. Get it out of her system. And how do you do that from an organic place? You don’t want to throw up - you have to go beyond that.” She paused. “Because I was pregnant at that time, it was a lot easier to touch feelings having to do with death and horror.”
“I wondered if being pregnant had an effect on your work,” I told her.
“You’re much more raw,” she agreed.
“When did you find out you were pregnant,” I asked.
“In January. I only announced it to the crew during ‘Many Happy Returns,’ but I told Lucy earlier,” she giggled. “During ‘The Last Of The Centaurs.’”
“That’s the episode with the birth of a centaur!” I laughed.
“I remember Lucy and I were on a hill,” Renee continued. “We had some time to kill and we were watching Geoff Short take photos of Danielle Cormack. That’s when I told Lucy. Couldn't help it - I was dying to tell her.” She laughed again.
“I saw photos of you when you were supposed to be riding a horse and you were actually on a two-by-four supported by four men,” I said curiously.
Renee roared with laughter. “Once it was understood I was pregnant, they were trying to take some precautions to keep me safe. In ‘When Fates Collide,’ I was a bit concerned about galloping on a horse because I'm not the best rider. But we did the scene anyway and it was fine. Now it's time to film ‘Friend,’ and I believe they thought I was still worried about being on a horse. Next thing I know, they have these two-by-fours and four men underneath me. I'm holding on trying to balance on this beam - without any stirrups or anything!” She laughed even harder. "It was so precarious. I was up there saying, 'You guys, get me a horse.’ But it was so funny and I was laughing so hard that I just thoroughly enjoyed it. It's funny how things snowball into something else.”
“I can just hear them thinking, ‘We’ll put her on a two-by-four, it's safer,’” I laughed.
“Exactly!” she chimed in. “‘On our shoulders and we’ll coordinate all four of our movements.’ I think I had my legs wrapped around the beam with a death grip.” I joined in her laughter.
“Then you did that terrific kickboxing fight with Morimoto,” I mentioned as I ran the episode in my head.
“I did do the fight,” she assured me. “I’d been taking kickboxing classes right up until the last couple of weeks of the show. It wasn’t a problem. And the stunt people were very careful about not hitting my stomach.
“I love kickboxing and really wanted to keep my fitness level up at least until the end of the show. And I’ve continued exercising since then. I think it’s very healthy and would recommend it for any pregnant woman - with supervision, of course.”
“Have you been going to classes?” I asked.
“I did various things over the different trimesters,” Renee explained. “Up until my eighth month, I was working out with a personal trainer with light weights. Also walking a lot and doing as much cardio as I could stand. The ninth month I cut back to just walking. I think it's so important for women to have healthy bodies and be physically fit enough to get through the labor as naturally as possible.”
From the sublime to the surreal. I decided to find out just what Renee was looking at when Xena was just a head!
“Lucy was wearing a very attractive green outfit,” Renee teased. “She looked like a cross between a Dr. Seuss character and Kermit the Frog. They used a green screen behind her and then they could erase her body.”
I looked at my watch and saw time was really running out. I didn’t want to have to end the interview with Renee going into labor, so I quickly zeroed in on the last few questions I wanted to ask.
“I’ve got to know,” I started, “in 'Many Happy Returns,’ did you pull Lucy's nose and see how she reacted or ask her first?”
“You know, I don't remember.” Then she laughed. “I think I wasn't too concerned and just did it.”
“And in the waterfall sequence, I saw the raw footage of that and Lucy gave a yelp. What did you do to her?” I asked.
“I pinched her,” Renee said without the least bit of remorse.
“In ‘To Helicon And Back,’” I began, “Gabrielle said, ‘With each battle I lose more of myself.’ Is she going to be a full-time warrior now?”
Renee thought for a moment. “It was left in an ambiguous fashion. I assumed Gabrielle was going to pick up where Xena left off and try to better the world the best way she could. Who knows exactly what that means, though. I think she came off much stronger and independent than she has ever been.”
“She’s spent most of the series trying to find other ways to solve problems than by using violence,” I said. “Is this what her life with Xena has brought her to? Is this what Xena would want for her?”
“We didn’t say Gabrielle’s going to become a killing machine,” Renee pointed out. “We said her life will continue and she’ll do the best she can. That's in Gabrielle's nature.”
“Some people said they didn’t see Gabrielle becoming a warrior in the sense that Xena was,” I told Renee. “They think she’ll use the best parts of both Xena and herself.”
“That’s the way I figure it,” she agreed. “She has new skills she can use, but it’s not in Gabrielle's nature to draw the sword first.”
“In ‘When Fates Collide,’ Gabrielle was willing to destroy the world to save Xena. Now she isn't willing to risk the souls of 40,000 people who have been dead for years,” I said.
“She does say in the last scene that she doesn't care about those people. All she cares about is Xena,” Renee said quietly. “Which to me was probably the heart of the dichotomy of Gabrielle. It was so against her nature to say that. Her love for Xena is so strong, it changed her emotionally. But she couldn't deny her friend the peace she had sought for so long.”