Eternal Bonds
written by Chris Manheim - Producer
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 12
SD: What did you want this episode to show?
Chris: One of the things we wanted to illustrate was a bonding with the baby. A chance for Xena and the baby to be mother and daughter together and yet not have Lucy on camera the whole time. What I needed to do was separate Xena and Gabrielle so we could cut between the two stories.
SD: Right. There was the breastfeeding and even the Ares/Xena scenes were intercut with Xena talking to the baby.
Chris: Exactly. Teaching her how to leave a false trail.
SD: Did you put the breastfeeding in?
Chris: Yes.
SD: Was there any discussion about whether or not this would be allowed to stay.
Chris: Since it’s such a “mother” thing to do, it would have looked weird if she wasn’t ever feeding Eve. And there weren't any baby bottles around. There was, I remember, some talk of Xena actually expressing milk at a warrior during the battle sequence. He charges at her and gets a shot in the eye. (laughs) But everyone decided that was getting a little too graphic.
SD: It would have been funny. (laughs)
Chris: The diapers in the face was about as far as we wanted to go with that.
SD: We had the diapers and the diaper pins thrown at the bad guy. How did they come to be part of the fight.
Chris: I was trying to figure out what you could use as a weapon that would be baby paraphernalia.
SD: And poop was a given. (laughs)
The gods are throwing all these lightning bolts and they can’t hit Xena and Gabrielle. Why not?
Chris: Would you believe they're bad shots! (laughs) And Lucy and Renee are really good dodgers?
SD: This leads me to the fact that when you have gods in a show, are you going to be faced with things that just aren’t explainable? I’m used to lightning bolts on Hercules and Xena always seeming to miss the mark when they're aimed at the heroes. And then Xena and Gabrielle ran into a cave. Why can’t the gods hit them inside the cave?
Chris: Good question. I think they just got tired of chasing them. (laughs)
SD: Was there ever any discussion about this power of the gods and their inability to destroy two humans?
Chris: No, I don’t remember any discussion about that at all. Every time Xena is brought to the gods attention they engage her. Seeing as Eve is supposed to predict their downfall, you would think they would at least assign a couple of gods to stay on the case and at every point try and interfere with them. But clearly that doesn’t happen.
SD: In our time, we’re used to an omniscient God who knows all and sees all. Were the Greek gods omniscient? Did they know what was going on at all times and in all places?
Chris: I’ve never thought of them that way. They have to figure out where people are. Even Zeus wasn’t all-knowing. I think they’re more anthropomorphic. Because they interact with human beings, they have similar faults. They're certainly prone to the jealousies and tantrums of humans. They aren’t godlike in that they can suspend their petty tyrannies. I think, too, unless they resort to magic and go to a pond and say, “Where is so and so,” and the pond can show them, they might have to, for example, send a bird to scout things out.
SD: We have Ares continually popping up where Xena is. So fans said why couldn’t Athena just pop up inside the house in “Amphipolis Under Siege” and kill Eve?
Chris: It’s because Ares has been looking at Xena and following her. It’s not that he’s off sitting somewhere with another god and decides to go visit Xena and can immediately know where she is. He has to find her. You just have to play that the gods have to follow as many clues as humans do except they have more sources of information to command.
SD: Otherwise they can't be defeated.
Chris: Right.
SD: The three giftgivers were named the Magi.
Chris: That's just a little joke. I wanted the audience to think they weren’t a threat. After all, they came with Joxer. I didn’t want to draw attention to the fact that they were three people who wanted to kill the child.
SD: So it was a way to misdirect the audience?
Chris: Yes. And playing a little with the Christlike implications of this child.
SD: They followed the light. When Eli was introduced and then the baby during this arc, what was the relationship to Jesus? Were there any discussions about that?
Chris: Only that we didn’t want any one of these characters to be Jesus. We wanted them to be thought of as prophets.
SD: Do you think they would have gone this route if Lucy hadn’t gotten pregnant in terms of delving into the One God religion?
Chris: Steve Sears played with that in that Dahak storyline when we went to Brittania in “The Deliverer.” That was a deliberate misdirection. You think you’re looking at early Christians and really they were Satanists. In the religious quest that Gabrielle undertook, you couldn’t help but touch on the One God theory. Actually, they brought in the Israelites in the second season in “Giant Killer.” And in season one I wrote “Altared States” which was the Abraham/Isaac story. He worshiped one God.
SD: And that is what happened in the true course of history. But now that the Greek gods are gone, what do you do with the opening speech to the show?! (laughs)
Chris: Good question! (laughs) But they're not all gone.
SD: Writing for the show, you’ve spent a fair amount of time living in Xena’s head. She's always been a cynical, suspicious person and very distrusting of the gods. Can you give me any insights about how you think Xena views Eli’s god?
Chris: I don't think she’s embraced it as a faith. But there may be something innate in the way Eli treats people, his way of wisdom, that she knows it’s not a violent, vengeful belief. Eli was all about universal love and non-violence. I’m not saying she would ever believe in his God, but I don’t think she would fear that his God would do bad things. She’s used to gods of war and all these tricky little gods we’ve dealt with in the show. Originally, Eli was running from his fate. But once he embraced it and she saw what his faith was, I can’t believe she would think it was evil.
SD: She may believe in Eli’s god because she believes and trusts Eli?
Chris: And everybody that Xena ran into that became followers of Eli, they were the same way. They were very pacifistic.
SD: How much of an effect would the fact that Gabrielle believed in Eli have had on Xena?
Chris: To me that’s the one thing that might give her pause because Gabrielle had fallen for so many different people that were stripped to reveal to be bad news. In “Motherhood,” we see the first time that it looks as if Xena has accepted a call from the One God. But otherwise, she won’t follow the path of love, she knows she must follow the way of the warrior. She doesn’t really change her belief system to embrace one God. She just recognizes the validity of universal love. I’m sure she probably thinks it’s all well and good for people who can do that, but they’re a little naive.
SD: Like the speech at the end of Eternal?
Xena: We live our lives the way we do because someone has to help those who can’t help themselves. But is it wrong to expose a child to that kind of violence?
Gabrielle: I think so, but sometimes it’s our only resort until we find a more effective way of doing it all.
Xena: Perhaps a greater wrong is never to fight at all. I think it doesn’t matter where we take stand — as long as we make one.
Chris: Yeah! There was some discussion about that speech. Xena raises the point about how good can it be to raise a child with all this violence and this has to be wrong. And Gabrielle says, “It is wrong.” Someone said, “She can't say it's wrong.” And I argued, “But it is wrong and we can’t say it's not. I can’t make her lie about it. The truth is, it’s wrong.” But until something better comes along, it’s what has to be done. That's the way they justify it. In the best of all possible worlds, you wouldn’t bring a child up around all this bloodshed and violence. But isn't it worse to do nothing and let evil exist?
SD: I like it when Xena is wrong and learns a lesson because we’re supposed to see ourselves in her. Speaking of being wrong, how about Ares and Xena! What was it Gabrielle said, Xena has a thing for bad boys? (laughs)
Chris: I must say that was my big push all last season. (laughs)
SD: Rob has been saying to me for years that he wanted to put Xena and Ares together. They even had a scene together in the Hercules episode “Armageddon Now” that was cut. I had stills from that scene and was going to put them in last year’s calendar and Rob asked me to wait. He was hoping a scene between the two of them would make it into a future Xena episode and he didn’t want it spoiled ahead of time.
Chris: All I know is when we were talking about trying to get Xena romantically involved with somebody, I know I was sitting at home thinking we’ve tried so many different ways. Ullyses didn’t work and Rafe from “King Con” didn’t work. In my mind, I sat down with Xena and I said to her, “If you could have anybody you wanted and nobody was the wiser for it, if time could stand still, who would you be with?” And Xena said, “Ares.” And I went wow! Except for the fact that he’s on the wrong side.
SD: ...and done very bad things to her.
Chris: Yes. And in all ways is not good for her. If there were no consequences, that’s who it would be. And frankly, I’m sure it’s because Lucy and Kevin work so well together and enjoy each other as people. Lucy seems comfortable with him. The word I got back was Lucy said, “It’s like kissing my brother.” And then I looked at the dailies and thought, “Boy! New Zealand must really be a different kind of island!” (laughs)
SD: You said you were hunting for a love interest for Xena. Was that something they wanted to do last season.
Chris: Actually, it was a drum I continued to beat. But, it’s that quandary of who can match Xena. Who really looks good with her and can stand toe to toe with her and Ares was the logical choice for me.
SD: How does Xena feel toward Ares?
Chris: In “Eternal Bonds” or generally?
SD: In general.
Chris: You know, by the end of the season he’s mortal. I think that’s a real positive thing. I’m so glad the choice was made not to kill Ares. Because he saved Eve and Gabrielle. He brought Eve back to life. He also saved her as a baby in “Eternal.” He had her in his hands and he could have done something about killing her then and chose not to. I think that was the very beginning of Xena thinking, “Wow, there may be something I can trust. There’s a core of decency somewhere in him - a little teeny one.” (laughs) I think for Xena, it would be really tough to give up her relationship with Gabrielle. But if any man was ever going to get her, it would be Ares. Especially now that he’s mortal.
SD: Can you talk about Gabrielle in this episode - the conflict she faced in deciding to leave Xena unprotected to save Joxer.
Chris: I think Gabrielle’s whole logic was Joxer might not be poisoned. It might not have been Apollo’s poisoned blade that cut him. She’s thinking, “I should leave you in danger just on the off chance that Joxer might be poisoned?” And Xena said, “What are your choices. If he is poisoned, he dies. Of course you have to go.”
SD: I didn’t think about the fact that he might not be poisoned. I just took it for granted he was because that was the story. But Gabrielle was having the conflict a real person might have.
Chris: Yeah. She wasn’t saying she didn’t want to take him to the antidote even though she knows for sure he has been poisoned. There was still a question. Joxer was saying he felt fine.
SD: Xena was telling Gabrielle, “I am okay even though the gods may be coming after me. I can take care of myself, but Joxer could really be dying.”
Chris: Yeah. “And if we guess wrong, Joxer dies. Do you wanna take that chance?” And Gabrielle knew she couldn’t take that chance.
SD: How come she couldn’t find north? (laughs)
Chris: Oh, she’s just not very good with directions. (laughs)
SD: How did Xena get to the tree first?
Chris: They had to slow down when Joxer got sick. And they also had to go off the path to hide. The original plan of riding fast to get to the tree while Xena leads the baddies away would have worked if Joxer hadn’t gotten worse and forced them to stop.
SD: A little bit on Joxer. The ending of “Comedy of Eros” was the first time I think he was given serious emotions.
Chris: Right.
SD: Gabrielle says, “Can you imagine the two of us together? What a laugh.” And Xena walks by and puts her hand on his shoulder because she knows what he’s feeling.
Chris: While he says, “Ha ha.”
SD: Do you think you would have portrayed Joxer differently in the series?
Chris: Well, he was mainly comic relief up until “Eros.” What we chose to do in that episode was humanize him and give him this bittersweet secret and a bit of an edge letting the audience know he’s secretly in love with Gabrielle. I thought it made for more weight to the character.
SD: Yes, it did. I forgot, did you write “Comedy of Eros”?
Chris: Yes, I did.
SD: Is that something you set out to do in that episode?
Chris: I like bittersweet feelings and I thought it worked well for that character.
SD: Adding another dimension to the character gave Ted more to work with which had to have been rewarding for him as an actor.
What about Gabrielle falling in love with Joxer? Why did it happen?
Chris: He’s been around the two of them for so many years, his character needed to grow the way theirs did. Otherwise, why didn’t he just go off and marry someone? If there wasn’t an emotional attachment, why hang around Xena and Gabrielle? They clearly mistreated him - with affection, but even so, they sometimes barely tolerated him. There needed to be a reason beyond the fact that he thought he was a hero who could hang out with Xena. The additional factor was that he takes the abuse because he’s in love.
SD: I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk about that.
Chris: Well, that’s what I believe.
SD: I forgot a question about Ares. His appearances to Xena when she was sleeping and then in the field when she was walking with Eve.
Chris: Ares was manipulating Xena’s dreams. At first you don’t know, but at the end he says, “Sweet dreams,” and that’s a tipoff to the audience he was Inserting himself into her dreams.
When she was walking in the field, that was Xena remembering her dream. Ares didn’t cause that.
SD: Lucy did that well. (laughs)
Chris: Yes, she did. (laughs)
SD: I loved Ares line, “I would rather die in your arms than live without you in mine.”
Chris: I thought what a hokey corny line and it’ll work just great. (laughs) I got a number of comments from the women in the office who were proofreading the script about that line.
SD: (laughs) The flying parchment made its reappearance. Gabrielle has to let Xena know where she is…
Chris: …and they can't make noise or do anything to attract any of the armies. That's the silent signal I came up with and you just hope the soldiers don’t look up. (laughs)
SD: But who’s to say they would associate that thing in the sky with Xena and Gabrielle?
Chris: How would they even know what it was? (laughs)
SD: Unless the giants spread the word of Xena’s invention from "A Day In The Life.” (laughs)
Did you have any thoughts about the violence Gabrielle was exhibiting in the fifth season to make up for the fact that Lucy couldn't fight?
Chris: Only what it lost us in a sense of contrast between the two women. Now they're both taking a similar point of view and there can’t be as many interesting talks. Something is needed to bring that balance back. Right now they’re both kickass.
SD: And Gabrielle used to be Xena’s conscience. A way for Xena to see her own behavior.
Chris: Yeah.
SD: They’ve designed a new costume for Gabrielle to try and soften the character a bit.
You were around during the writing of “Motherhood.” Were you in on the discussions about deciding to kill the gods?
Chris: We had known from the beginning of the season that we were going to end up with an episode originally titled “Twilight of the Gods” which became “Motherhood.” And in terms of who would die and who wouldn't? There was some talk about should Ares sacrifice himself for Eve? Or for Gabrielle? Or Xena?
SD: Giving them back their lives would drain and kill him?
Chris: Right. And in that moment there would be a genuine kiss between Ares and Xena that was emotional. That wasn't just lust. An honest meeting of souls because he would have redeemed himself. But he didn’t end up dying and I think that was the best news. Now he can be brought back.
SD: What about Aphrodite?
Chris: Rob especially didn’t want her to die because she was fairly good-hearted. And who wants to kill off the Goddess of Love?
SD: What about the other gods?
Chris: There’s a line early on in the episode that says, “The gods that want to take part in this are here. The others have fled.” So you can assume there are other gods out there that didn’t get killed and that could make a reappearance.
SD: The blood on Eve's cheek at the end of “Eternal.” Can you comment on that? Was it in the script?
Chris: It was. It was RJ’s idea that this would be a good visual to see blood and that is where Xena’s question at the end comes from. She really hadn't given it much thought up until the baby gets blood on her. And then, she thinks, “What have I done? I’ve brought this child into a world where she’s going to be splattered with blood or worse. Maybe this is a bad idea. Maybe we should run away and hide from the things that could harm her.”
SD: Before that Xena was in that new mama haze?
Chris: Yeah. Thinking, “I can do it. I can take care of my child. Nothing will touch her.” And then something does.